I know that some people have fits about Nazi coins and other people don't mind them at all.In my opinion I am a #4 I believe that Nazi coins are just part of history. I started this Thread for 2 reasons: First reason is just to see what people have to say about them and their personal opinion. Second reason is to take a vote on people's opinion's and see what most people think. THIS IS MEANT TO BE A FRIENDLY VOTE AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE PEOPLE ARGUING! This is what I wanted to vote on:
(You can only choose one of the opinion's below)
#1-I hate Nazi coins and I think that anyone who owns one is also a Nazi.
#2-I think it is bad to own a Nazi coin, but I do not care if others own one.
#3-I simply don't see any numismatic importance in them. I do not have much of an opinion on this topic.
#4-I think it is alright to own a Nazi coin but I do not think the Nazis where good people.
#5-I praise people who own these coins and I support the Nazis.
#6-I don't care.
If you do not want to vote but just want to say your opinion then that is completely acceptable, just say that you are not voting but simply commenting. But if you do want to vote than just say your opinion number and if you want you can something to back it up. Each person gets ONE vote only! On February 1st I will count up all the votes and I will post who wins! Happy voting!
Nothing in history should be brushed off simply because some are offended by it for whatever reason, instead we should be reminded of such terrible events in world history so that we can learn from them and never repeat the same mistakes.
Slavery should not be forgotten, items related to slavery should not be destroyed or considered inappropriate to preserve.
Populist movements should not be forgotten, we should be reminded of how democracy can give birth to horrible dictatorships under the right circumstances.
New German generations should not be held responsible for their ancestors past.
Racial segregation should not be forgotten but as with any terrible things of the past it should not be used to justify wrong things, what happened decades ago does not justify what is currently happening in South Africa no matter what.
Buildings shouldn't be blown up simply because a tiny elite has decided to pillage poor countries to boost their country's economy.
Most of us here rely our high standard of living on cheap labor which is comparable to slavery, it's not like our generation doesn't have it's faults and we haven't exactly decided that it is fine having as such that as individuals.
Also, I'd like to note that by making a poll that clearly has a specific agenda isn't exactly the best way to create a proper discussion.
Obviously nobody's going to vote for #1 because it's made to sound like it's a stupid opinion to begin with, although it's probably for best not to have a very controversial topic being discussed openly on a site like Numista because this thread will either be about everybody agreeing with each other or fighting about subjective opinions.
If somebody does actually think that national socialism is a good thing they're obviously not going to say it out loud because they would immediately get attacked by others in this thread.
This poll won't represent the reality of things, if you wish to know what people actually think then you should create an anonymous poll instead.
What's the point of this thread besides jerking over popular opinions?
That is unless your intention is to create a breeding ground for personally attacking those with controversial opinions, in my opinion it's better to create an anonymous survey and discuss the topic openly.
What is the difference between a 'Nazi'coin and any other coin??????? Is it the coins mistake it was minted
in a certain time by certain people? I actually do not see the use of this question. If I owe some, so-called Nazi-coins (I do indeed) does it mean I support some barbaric regime from mor than 80 years ago??? Btw what about
coins minted by other, discutable, rulers or regimes for example the former USSR? or lets say North-Korea or the US
No4. It is part of history. The best of us and the last of us. Of course I Don support the nazi wrong doing. If they never go to war, they could be a very powerful nation by now with a rich history. Why do I say so?
Because they are in debt in the beginning. Hilter brought them out of that into a stable and prosperus nation. But in the later part when they go to war, it become a problem. Espically on those genocide crimes.
Be kind to people. Sharing is Caring. Collect what you like and not by the Crowd.
To seek for perfection, it is too painful and there is a very high price to pay. To seek for something comfortable is more easy. To seek for nothing is even more easy.
Personally, I fall in at #2. If you have them, fine - people have their reasons, and I'm not going to judge that (and I do NOT believe that most people who own them are Nazis). I, however, do not want Nazi coins, and will never buy or swap for them. I don't want any Nazi representation or history of any kind among my possessions. Other people can do that if they want, but it isn't for me.
A six year Numista absence makes the heart grow fonder... ?
There are two issues being polled. One is numismatic and the other political.
I'll collect their coins same as any other.
As for the politics of Germany history, I encourage you to treat it the same as any other. Investigate from both sides. Nearly all regimes use propaganda to remain in power.
My axiom is that historians are more often punished for telling the truth than for reiterating the party line.
A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from someone else's.
As for the vote, I see no suitable option for me. The closest option is #4, but I should add that I don't want to own or even see these coins.
After reading the older thread (the link is given above), I see no point in repeating what was said there.
Sadly there is a trend to post without reading when a thread is longer.
4 - Nazis were despicable, but then again most coins are from regimes that at least some people will find despicable.
Not choosing to collect a coin because of the regime it represented is just daft, unless you are venerating that group through the coin. I mean I love British empire coins and colonial coinage from Africa, India and the Caribbean, yet the British were assholes to the locals calling them inferior and treating them like shit. Calling them savages and basic and all this other shit.
I don't particularly like Nazi coins as most of them looked cheap and awful (Those ugly zinc 5 and 10 Pfennig) and even the 2 and 5 mark coins are basic and understated by some of the magnificient coins issued in the 1930s (Like my beloved British and New Zealand Halfcrowns and Liberty walker halves).
Yes I agree having option 5 is baiting - why do you need to state if someone liked the Nazis, how about just saying they liked the coins of the Nazis and leave it there. We all know that neo Nazis are serious issue in Europe (Particularly the east) and that anti semitism and anti Islamic racism has been rarked up by idiots like Donald Trump, Nigel Farage and Marine le Pen. Why give these ideas oxygen and air them out loud.
Calvin V has given the best answer so far and I agree with it.
PS I have a few manky 5 and 10 Pfennig coins dated 1940 and 1941 along with some Kaiserine German coins as well.
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
Like many others, I would fall in the #4 category, and I'm actually interested in Nazi coins and notes because I'm interested in bad ideologies both on the right (e.g. Fascism and Nazism) and on the left (e.g. Communism or the current SJW madness).
I bought a Nazi-era 5 Mark two years ago in Berlin, at the Sunday markets (in the Bernauerstraße area). Interestingly, there were traces of tape left over the swastika; I didn't remove them, though it would have been easy to do so with acetone.
Coins and notes of dictatorial regimes are, IMHO, more interesting than republican coinages and the coinages of democratic and stable regimes. I don't see much interest in the head of a pseudo-woman representing Liberty or something like that, decade after decade. Of course, I am not advocating for the return of dictatorship so that we would have more interesting coinage... I'm just making an observation. That so many states have a boring coinage is perhaps a good thing.
To take an ancient example, I don't find much interest in Roman mid-Republican coinage: head of Minerva or Roma on the obverse and a prow or chariot on the reverse. Imperatorial and imperial coinages are, again IMHO, much more interesting.
And as for the Nazis, postage stamps are actually a lot more interesting as a representation of the regime than the coins or notes. Hitler himself was a stamp collector especially interested in the stamps of the British Empire as a reflection of their colonialism (if I remember correctly).
By the way, I've always wondered why Hitler was so prominent on German postage stamps, but never on coins and notes. Instead, they barely dared to represent the Swastika clenched by the eagle, with the Hindenburg type repeated for several years on the silver ─ a type which should have been a one-year commemorative issue.
I suspect #4 is the closest to my opinion, but I don't really care that much about Nazi coins in particular. Not a series I'm actively collecting, and for the most part they're rather ugly.
However, while I could hardly care less if someone is collecting Nazi coins or not, I still believe that there is no problem in collecting Nazi coins, or indeed coins of any other* dictatorial and/or genocidal regime (e.g. the Congo Free State).
As such, I find it rather weird when people start calling other people Nazis (and/or insensitive) because said other people collect Nazi coins. I do care about that part.
(I actually do have a few Nazi coins in my own collection, but they're mostly holdovers from my "get lots of everything" days, and/or really cheap bargain bin finds.)
...For what it's worth, if I ever end up finding a cheap Congo Free State coin, I'd totally buy it. They're much cooler than the Nazi coins.
[EDIT: I also agree with Dato Mikeladze, but "Nazi coins" is a convenient shorthand.]
*) that does not still actively profit from those coins, at least, so I guess not ISIS; can't think of any other such possibilities offhand... don't think North Korea would count?
I'm sorry but I don't think "Third Reich" is any better. It was the Nazis themselves giving this name to Germany in their grandiose ideological vision of the rebirth of a German Empire after what they considered the First and Second Reiche, i.e. the Holy Roman Empire (to 1806) and the German Empire from 1871 to the end of the First World War, when the last German Kaiser abdicated.
EDIT: Yet I acknowledge that the Nazi party was in power, and they "baptized" their regime with that name, the Third Reich, officially. It is not like the "Weimar Republic", which is an unofficial name for the regime that happened to be founded in ... Weimar.
Like France from Louis XVI to the 1870s, it's interesting to organize German coins by periods, say from the late 1700s to the 1950s, because you see all the changes in political regimes reflected in the coinage.
引用する: "Camerinvs"
By the way, I've always wondered why Hitler was so prominent on German postage stamps, but never on coins and notes. Instead, they barely dared to represent the Swastika clenched by the eagle, with the Hindenburg type repeated for several years on the silver ─ a type which should have been a one-year commemorative issue.
I did some research into the question a few years back and it's quite an interesting story.
Hitler had two main sources of income apart from a modest government salary - royalties from Mein Kampf and a quite hefty payment for licencing his image on postage stamps. I didn't know he was a stamp collector but that may explain why the 3rd Reich stamp issues are of such high quality and interest compared to the rather more austere coins. Learn something new every day, thank you my dear fellow!
With regard to coins it's very curious that none were ever issued with the Fuhrer's likeness. Given the revenue from postage stamps was quite substantial he certainly had a financial incentive. It for sure wasn't modesty as his image was used extensively on many items other than postage stamps. The story, as I recall it, goes that around 1942 he was presented with a proof set at the Wolf's Lair in East Prussia but rejected the design as he didn't want to use his image until the final victory.
It's not known what happened to the original proof set but it's long been rumored that the dies were smuggled to Argentina and were used to create mementos for German ex-pats living in Buenos Aires during the 1950s. I've never seen one in person although there was a set shown in a news story about a former SS officer who's family found a room full of WWII artifacts after his death.
They're listed in K&M although I'm far from convinced that these are the same coins presented to Hitler. Mainly because there's no date (the "1933" refers to the start of the 3rd Reich some nine years earlier) and the swastika was usually shown being clasped by an eagle in the Parteiadler, not by itself. The hokey"Germanic" font and crude portrait are also red flags. Surely they would have made use of the already licenced and approved image used on the stamps? It looks more like one of those fantasy / tribute coins being peddled on Ebay.
Thanks, Phil ─ very interesting! And I agree that the "coin" doesn't look like a German trial issue.
This got me to look for more information about the stamps, and I found and downloaded an article precisely on Third Reich stamps: Frederick Lauritzen, "Propaganda Art in the Postage Stamps of the Third Reich" in The Journal of Decorative and Propaganda Arts, Vol. 10 (1988), pp. 62─79. On the first page, the author happens to say this (!):
I have calculated that from the emission of the first Third Reich postage stamp on 12 April 1933 to the last printed in Germany on 10 April 1945 (coinciding with Hitler's fifty-sixth birthday only ten days before his suicide in the Berlin Fuhrerbunker), the series included 334 different subjects: an average of 30 new subjects every year in Germany alone. This variety is quite remarkable, especially when compared with Nazi coinage where the head of Germany's President von Hindenburg continued to be used unaltered throughout the Third Reich (Adolf Hitler's portrait which, as we shall see, was often used on Third Reich stamps, never appeared on German coins of the period!).
Coinage of the third Reich is a coinage of legal country, which never change a coinage after increasing their territory. It was just a money for millions of people, lived in Germany on that times. They never issued evena coin for special ( commemorative NAZI event or date) . For me its just a collecting, numismatic material, and nothing more. Coinage was not propaganda. swastika was just a power symbol, which were prohibited later.
absolutely different is so-called coins of ISIS, which are totally propaganda .
I`d say, that there were a lot of much more evil in the world, than nazi regime, the acts of which have not been condemned so far, unlike the Nazi regime - Central African Empire, Uganda, Congo colonial coins, Stalin`s coinage of 1921-1953.. These regimes killed thousands and millions of their own innocent citizens. But we collect these coins because it was just a money for whole country. people were buying bread a water for that money.
They're history. Simple as that. Buying a Nazi coin will not support/fund or anything the Nazi Party because they no longer exist as an organisation.
They're not inherently evil to say, they were the currency and coins of the country at the time. They were minted to be used in an economy much like every coin that's minted today.
This thread reminds me of the one about ISIS coins, in which you shouldn't try to obtain them as you could be supporting the organisation by doing so.
I have a decent collection of Nazi coins, they go into my Germany collection and it wouldn't make sense to me to collect the many variations of german coins and skip a design/period just because they have swastikas on them.
Good points. If you think about it, even if you fiercely opposed the Nazi regime, whether you were a left-leaning German, a Jew, or whoever else the Nazis oppressed, you had no choice in your daily life but to use the state coinage to buy bread and milk, gas, a train ticket, etc.
Now, if the Nazis had produced the same deluxe trash as modern states do solely for profit, i.e. the so-called non-circulating legal tender "coins", then yes, there would be an ethical problem in collecting such items. The same is true, I suppose, for ISIS coins. If I'm not mistaken, ISIS produced both circulating coins and NCLTs, the latter meant to finance their murderous operations.¹
One more note about the Hindenburg commemoratives: As I said, they should have been a one-year type, but when you think about it, in many ways Hindenburg was the enabler of the rise of Hitler and the Nazi regime. Within two months, not only had Hitler been made Chancellor (30 Jan. 1933) but also "Dictator" in all but name by March of the same year. The Hindenburg type over the Nazi years was meant to proclaim continuity with the past (i.e. the so-called Weimar Republic), but this served to legitimize a regime that actually had come to power in a political coup ratified by Hindenburg.
________
¹ To find all Numista posts on ISIS, use this in Google: site:en.numista.com "isis"
You know that I have very strange family history, My great grand father left Germany with his younger brother. From a family of 12. In the 1870's became a US resident in the 1880's. Which sound strange, but had family members on each side in WWI and WWII. In WWII my family had a big mounts and said what they thought of the Nazis . Which landed them all in camps, men, woman and kids.In 1946 the last family member still alive was smuggled out of Germany. At that time the red cross would help for ten thousand dollars and the army and others had they hands out. The red cross has a very seedy past. So having family members killed by Nazis only because having said what they thought. It is part of my family history, an ugly part. But I see no point in glorifying them. But it is history. And yes I have a lot of Nazi coins. And see no reason not to have them in my collection. And don't think it is wrong to have them. I find this poll to be more ugly then the coins.
Now after they went to camps and there land was mostly given to the church. Which has a more seedy past with the Nazis than the red cross. And helped them. Should we not collect Vatican coins. The pope at first gave Hitler his blessing. How about the little fat man next door to Germany. After WWii he kill I think more people than Hitler. Come on now , over the last 800 years Every group of human kill large number of other people for gold or just being in the way. Who would be left to collect. No one.
A side note. Money is the root of evil. If you think about it money has been the driving force for killings of hundred's of millions of people. Though out time. Or to get it. And what do we collect, money.
While I am far from being a fan of the current US administration, it's important to stress that the fasces are not a fascist symbol as such. In fact, neither the fasces nor the swastika were fascist symbols until the 20th century. The swastika (which the Nazis turned over so that it is "backward") was a symbol of good luck and it's found on many "good luck" tokens, such as this British one. The fasces go back to ancient Rome ─ actually, ancient Etruria. The symbol was used again over the past three centuries. Most notable is the coinage of the French Revolution and it looks like on the US gold eagle and half eagle, the eagle is standing on a bundle of fasces as well (and note the olive branch as on the Mercury dime).
It appears to me that the eagle on the Gold Eagle coin is atop a bundle of arrows.
However, I find the topic of symbolic images on coins and currency of great interest. And think it would warrant a separate thread.
A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from someone else's.
Hi colleagues.
I'm playful, and would like to participate in this game. But this game doesn't make sense to me!
I understand the assignment, the reasoning of the majority, but my head doesn't make sense.
To my knowledge so Nazism is an ideology and coins are intended for payment.
Paying for bread is not an ideology. As for symbols, there is another thing, All the monstrous modes and their simboli are often induce displeasure and are often prohibited by law.
In the Czech Republic, the simboli of Nazism and Communism are set to the same level. And I have to throw all the coins out of my native Czechoslovakia???
The Communist star on the coins is in the same category. There are many examples of coins from other modes. Please do not confuse ideologies and coins.
Certainly the closest is No. 4 -but to judge membership in the organization of nazism and ideology and to say who was good and bad is inaccurate, many Germans helped in the resistance from our point of view probably the good ones people and yet they paid from coins with simboli crazy ideology they paid for bread.
I paid with coins with a big communist star-am I therefore a bad person?
And what do you pay today and your state's ideology is monstrous ?
Please think in terms of history and logic!
引用する: "MIMAEL"Paying for bread is not an ideology. [...]
In the Czech Republic, the symbols of Nazism and Communism are set to the same level. And I have to throw all the coins out of my native Czechoslovakia???
The Communist star on the coins is in the same category. There are many examples of coins from other modes. Please do not confuse ideologies and coins.
[...] to judge membership in the organization of Nazism and ideology and to say who was good and bad is inaccurate, many Germans helped in the resistance from our point of view probably the good ones people and yet they paid from coins with symbols crazy ideology they paid for bread.
I paid with coins with a big communist star ─ am I therefore a bad person?
Exactly. And while I've never experienced anything like living under an authoritarian regime here in America, it's what I said several posts above yours:
引用する: "Camerinvs"If you think about it, even if you fiercely opposed the Nazi regime, whether you were a left-leaning German, a Jew, or whoever else the Nazis oppressed, you had no choice in your daily life but to use the state coinage to buy bread and milk, gas, a train ticket, etc.
But here's an American example: US coins carry the legend "In God We Trust" which is barely legal given the (now more and more theoretical) separation of Church and State by the Founders of the State. Whether they care or not, polytheists, agnostics, atheists, and other non-Christians have no choice but to use this coinage anyway.
The Nazis are truly evil and were responsible for the deaths of countless innocent people. However, I don't see what's wrong with owning coins attributed to the Nazi rule. Rather, I think it is a way to acknowledge their existence in history despite their barbaric actions. It's a way to keep society in check, lest people forget and history repeats itself...
Architecture Grad | Visual Artist | Coin Collector
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While the Nazis are truly despicable people, you cannot deny that it is a part of history. History is immutable; it is fact. Fact is blind to human concepts of morality.
Fascism was a dark period of history, but is history nonetheless. As coin collectors, history is what we collect.
光復香港 時代革命
五大訴求 缺一不可
Liberate Hong Kong, Revolution of our times
引用する: "HongKongCoinCollector"#4.
While the Nazis are truly despicable people, you cannot deny that it is a part of history. History is immutable; it is fact. Fact is blind to human concepts of morality.
Fascism was a dark period of history, but is history nonetheless. As coin collectors, history is what we collect.
While I certainly agree that the image most people have of Germans in the 20th century is not very flattering, I must also say that it is among the most fanciful. In way too many cases, an honest historian will go to jail for telling the truth about the two world wars.
History is not fact, it is a fabrication agreed upon by the victors to keep the ignorant masses in check.
School and the media are not for education, but indoctrination.
I was 60 years old before I started doing my own research and thinking for myself.
And the world does not appear the same.
A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from someone else's.
引用する: "HongKongCoinCollector"While the Nazis are truly despicable people, you cannot deny that it is a part of history. History is immutable; it is fact. Fact is blind to human concepts of morality.
Fascism was a dark period of history, but is history nonetheless. As coin collectors, history is what we collect.
While I certainly agree that the image most people have of Germans in the 20th century is not very flattering, I must also say that it is among the most fanciful. In way too many cases, an honest historian will go to jail for telling the truth about the two world wars.
History is not fact, it is a fabrication agreed upon by the victors to keep the ignorant masses in check.
School and the media are not for education, but indoctrination.
I was 60 years old before I started doing my own research and thinking for myself.
And the world does not appear the same.
I have to reply to this in the spirit of setting the record straight.
Except for Mathematics and Logic, everything is probabilities, some very low, and some so high that they amount to facts. Thus, it is extremely highly probable that Jimmy Carter was President of the USA, so much so that it is rightly considered a fact. Why? We know the USA exist; we have official documents and films and photos of Jimmy Carter as President; we have witnesses who are still alive... including Carter himself.
Likewise, Gaius Julius Caesar almost certainly existed. Because he lived over 2000 years ago, the probability that he did exist seems ever so slightly lower than for Jimmy Carter, but again there is lots of evidence of all sorts to confirm it: inscriptions on stone, Caesar's own writings, coins (!), etc.
According to Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is generally to be preferred over a more complex one. For the sake of argument, let's take someone who would claim that Caesar never existed. What would be the consequences? Well, that person would have the burden of proof and would need to re-write huge pans of history:
Why do we have coins, inscriptions, papyri, and other ancient material evidence of Caesar?
With whom did Pompey and Crassus form a "triumvirate" in 59 BCE, if not with Caesar? And if you deny the existence of the Triumvirate, how do you explain the numerous ancient sources that record it?
If Caesar did not conquer Gaul, who did? And if no-one did, why do the French speak a language derived from Latin, the language of the Romans? And who wrote Caesar's Gallic War, and what is it if not Caesar's war diary (however biased it was)?
How did the Greek writer Plutarch, who wrote a biography of Caesar, not know that he never existed?
Why did Augustus (on whom we have thousands of sources, including coins) take the name Gaius Iulius divi filius Caesar after his posthumous adoption by Caesar?
What's the origin of the words Czar and Kaiser if not from Caesar?
I could go on forever. The same can be done about Jimmy Carter, the Holocaust, the War of 1812, etc. etc. etc.
So, History amounts to being an interpretation of facts of varying degree of certainty. The "history" written by the victors has to be taken into account, but upon examination, a professional historian may decide that much of it amounts to propaganda or at least "exaggerations of the truth". Usually, the backdrop, at least, would largely be authentic. The invasion of Poland, for example, would have been explained very differently by a German and a Pole, but Poland exists, and both sides plus third parties (including historians) agree that there was an invasion of Poland in 1939.
To say that "school and the media are not for education, but indoctrination" is a huge oversimplification, though I don't deny that there is a problem. I am on the left, but I reject far-left "wokism" just as much as far-right ideologies. To a large extent, ideologies are claims that are not based on evidence, or at best they are insufficiently evidenced. There's an old saying revived by Christopher Hitchens: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
And I would suggest to double-check that Churchill quote. I don't think he ever said that.
Camerinvs, You are not setting the record straight, you are perpetuating the myths.
Truth is not determined by a vote.
You, as liberals are wont to do, have introduced enough extraneous issues that the core of the discussion cannot be addressed.
"Except for Mathematics and Logic, everything is probabilities,"
Lets stick with this if you want to increase your understanding.
But the mathematics and logic do not support popular narrative.
And I appreciate your civil nature as these discussions frequently turn into the intellectual equivalent of a food fight.
Then the moderators (most frequently liberals) have to step in when the facts become uncomfortable and shut down the discussion.
Churchill is "It is clear to me now that we have slaughtered the wrong pig". In the news journal The New Statesman and Nation, volume 35, page 373, dated 28th August 1948.
A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from someone else's.
引用する: "Kurt53"Camerinvs, You are not setting the record straight, you are perpetuating the myths.
Truth is not determined by a vote.
You, as liberals are wont to do, have introduced enough extraneous issues that the core of the discussion cannot be addressed.
"Except for Mathematics and Logic, everything is probabilities,"
Lets stick with this if you want to increase your understanding.
But the mathematics and logic do not support popular narrative.
And I appreciate your civil nature as these discussions frequently turn into the intellectual equivalent of a food fight.
Then the moderators (most frequently liberals) have to step in when the facts become uncomfortable and shut down the discussion.
Churchill is "It is clear to me now that we have slaughtered the wrong pig". In the news journal The New Statesman and Nation, volume 35, page 373, dated 28th August 1948.
Hi Kurt,
Quick reply for now: You changed the quote. In your post the quote was "The unforgivable sin of Hitler's Germany was to develop a new economic system by which the international bankers were deprived of their profits."
And what myths am I perpetuating? I'd be interested to know. In other words, I need evidence from what I wrote that I am perpetuating myths.
引用する: "Kurt53"Churchill is "It is clear to me now that we have slaughtered the wrong pig". In the news journal The New Statesman and Nation, volume 35, page 373, dated 28th August 1948.
A quick search using the text from your source gave us that both the quotes are most probably fakes. There is no evidence that Churchill told this. Fake from 1948 is still fake.
But it is also an opinion from the Internet (qouted Mr. Richard Langworth of the Churchill Centre)...
Anyway...
But generally I agree that "History is not fact, it is a fabrication agreed upon by the victors to keep the ignorant masses in check.
School and the media are not for education, but indoctrination." And the fact of using these 2 quotes is confirmed this
My personal list of scammers from Numista: erniemix, yvain, CassTaylor
Quick reply for now: You changed the quote. In your post the quote was "The unforgivable sin of Hitler's Germany was to develop a new economic system by which the international bankers were deprived of their profits."
I did not mean to change the quote, but simply add another in support.
A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from someone else's.
My opinion as suggested early on, there is no such thing as Nazi coins. There are coins that come from the part of the planet known as Germany that were produced during the time period in which a political movement known as Nazism was in power.
As collectors of anything we are essentially museum curators. The preservation of anything should be done without political bias. As alluded to earlier almost every country and empire has committed atrocities that a vast majority of the human population find reprehensible. I don't currently own any German coins from the 1930's to 1945 but I do have several USA $20 bills. I find the genocide of indigenous people of North America to be reprehensible yet I still own money picturing Andrew Jackson.
One of the keys to this debate is education. One should educate themselves as to the historical aspects of anything that is collected. Should we destroy all of everything that humanity has created because so much is tied to humans "behaving badly"? I think that would be counter productive to learning from past mistakes, which I know doesn't ever really seem to happen.
Just as any museum has to decide on a focus so too should we as coin collectors. Choose what you want to preserve and leave others to preserve other things.
I choose none of the above. I will preserve what I wish and without political bias to keeping the artifact in good shape.
I have some coins from Nazi Germany. I have never directly purchased any, but I have some that were in lots of loose coins I picked up here or there. They are in my collection because people used them to buy food, clothes, transportation, etc.
I don't like what happened in Nazi Germany, but I also don't like what happens today many places around our world. I still collect coins from anywhere. Its nice to think we have at least that much in common.
There is a distinct difference between POW camps and concentration camps.
I have 3 of these Lagergeld banknotes that were given to me by their owner 37 years after his release from a POW camp, but he kept them in his wallet all of that time until he gave them to me when he retired from the company for which we both worked.
I bought a fourth banknote to go with them, and would really like the full set, but never see them for sell.
I believe that Nazism and fascism are part of world history, and at the same time they are reality. We must not forget the pain and hatred that this ideology and its adherents have brought. But it is very, very stupid to hate the objects of that era and the people who collect those objects. With this logic, let's close museums, stop exhibiting at exhibitions, etc. What will we get in the end? The fact that people will start to forget those times. And we can't let that happen. Because it could happen again. Mankind must remember its history so as not to repeat past mistakes. Yes, history can be different, good and bad. But that's our story. And you can't run away or hide from it. It's all you can do is admit it and get used to it.
Bought a 36 Hindenburg 5 mark last fall in Germany. Have a number of nazi pfennig. I like much of the war year coinage from around the world as the need for precious metals changed many. Canadian nickels turned to tombac and multi sided like the British 3 pence. The Vichy government issued coins. The zinc Netherlands coins have good designs on them too. Even the Yanks issued a steel penny. I am not a war monger but it certainly created variety for us. And as we go into the anniversary years of world war two events there are a multitude of commemorative coins being issued. So mark me up as a 4.
I'm firmly in the #4 camp, the years 1933 - 1945 were arguably the most significant in modern European history and the Third Reich was the driving force behind the events of the period, for good and bad. I have mostly completed collections of coins and stamps as well as a blooming collection of militaria and medals. There's far more scope outside of the philatelic / numismatic fields due to the large number of civil awards and badges plus a real trove of items relating to the Berlin Olympics. I don't see myself getting bored in the near future.
I have only three reservations which have been discussed at some length elsewhere, so let me just summarize them -
1. I don't collect ordinance of any type, used or unused. I'm currently recovering from a shoulder injury following an overenthusiastic spell of shooting my vintage 10 gauge, a monster of a gun with a kick like a donkey. That's about the limit of my risk tolerance. I don't intend my early demise to result from handling unstable 1943 mortar rounds.
2. I don't collect anything made after April 1945. The "historical significance" argument just can't be applied to a "Hitler Tribute Proof Coin" made last Thursday in a Chinese sweat shop. The same goes for Ghetto Tokens, SS canteen money and Concentration Camp money. I've seen thousands, handled hundreds and I've yet to find one I consider genuine. They're just ghoulish and in poor taste.
3. Most importantly, I have several Jewish friends who's companionship I'd like to keep. I've no intention of allowing my collecting ambitions to intrude into the comfort zone of those I love and respect. They know what I collect and more importantly, why. If they were visiting and wanted to see my collection I'd probably get out my Lazereto tokens or my UK coppers.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Pnightingale. “...the Third Reich was the driving force behind the events of the period...”
My studies have lead me to the conclusion that to a large degree, the Germans were reacting to deeds from both inside and outside of the German boarders.
And, “I've no intention of allowing my collecting ambitions to intrude into the comfort zone of those I love and respect.”
I can appreciate your sensitivity, but I don't understand.
At an early age, I began to question the official story of the shooting of JFK. Later I learned that the attack on Pearl Harbor was not a surprise to some men in high positions. Then I learned that the Maine was not attacked by the Spanish in Cuba. And the Lusitania wasn't merely transporting innocent passengers. The Gulf of Tonkin incident go down as we were told. Nor 911. And the list goes on.
Ergo, my questioning the official story of WWII doesn't make me a tin foil hat crazy conspiracy theorist. It merely makes me a logical prudent person that recognizes that Americans are lied to every time the Military industrial complex wants to make money by means of war.
I am fully aware that there cannot be any rational discussion that might challenge what is taught in public schools and through Hollywood, at least on this forum, but if anyone is interested in learning more, the information is available. Just not in the main channels.
And if one does search, they may discover evidence of things they might otherwise have never imagined.
Comfortable myths are often preferred over disturbing realities.
A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from someone else's.
My dear Kurt, here's what I've learned over the course of a long and well lived life (64 tomorrow, yay for me!) some of it as a Civil Service flunkie with some knowledge of how governments do and don't work.
There's an unhealthy "court historian" atmosphere which has lead to a major distrust of establishments worldwide. This is entirely justified but I don't believe it's a grand conspiracy, they're just not that competent. (ref. Comey, Brennan & Clapper) Where conspiracy shenanigins do occur it's often a result of bad decisions taken at the local level by those mid way down the food chain. This necessitates the higher levels of government to get involved to divert public attention from their own failings. For example the Warren Commission's findings were entirely predictable but not because there was a secret CIA hit team. The earth isn't flat and we really did go to the moon.
So in 1975 we all knew that the Katyn Massacre was the work of the Germans, by 2000 we had proof definitive that it was the Soviets. Were we wrong in 1975? Almost certainly but based on the available evidence it was a more than reasonable assumption. I believed it at the time and I'm certain there are people who still believe it today. This is why I don't trust either the court historians or the tin hat guys.
We will never really know what exactly happened from 1933 - 1945, those who were there are mostly dead and those who would dissent are jailed. A healthy challenge is on it's face a good thing we might agree no? Well if we're talking about Napoleon's Russian campaign then yeah, I'm all in. I have my view, you have yours, we can discuss them and part amicably without feeling the other is somehow tainted with evil. Nobody ever called me a "Nazi" because I believe Robert E Lee made the biggest mistake of the Civil War by engaging at Gettysburg. Oh, I can tell you it's not a popular belief in the Deep South where he's quite rightly held in high regard but we're kinda grown up about it.
But it would be silly to expect the same to apply to the first half of the 20th century. We all know why. Whatever evils were inflicted on the defeated CSA during Reconstruction are not even close in terms of scope and outcome with those of 1941 - 1945. I know more than a few people, not all Jewish, who's family members were exterminated as a matter of public policy. >mic drop<
I'm happy to, and frequently do, engage in long rambling conversations with friends about the genius of The Wilderness campaign, the criminal nature of Sherman's March to the Sea, I can even argue the merits of the Strength Through Joy and Winter Relief programs of the 3rd Reich. Apart from a passing acknowledgement that it actually happened, I don't ever discuss the minor details of the Holocaust. It doesn't matter to me if there are a few inconsistencies in recollections, those who died are still lost to their families. I often think it's like approaching a grieving mother watching her dead child being pulled from a car wreck and pointing out that he didn't use his turn signal.
At this point it would probably be wise to redirect the conversation back to the coins etc. from the period. I appreciate your perspective and agree that this is not the right time or place to discuss the darker implications. I will say only this - a sincere thank you for what seems to be a unanimous feeling that a coin collection doesn't indicate anything beyond a love of history and numismatics. You folks are just awesome!
Now I'll go back to my albums full of Damned Carpetbagging Yankee money and try to fill a few gaps. :)
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
I love to find WWII coins, even those from Germany with swastikas on them. It's part of our universal history, so why do people feel that it's right to exclude these coins from their collections? I don't understand this mentality - the swastika is a symbol of prosperity and good luck, or light and dark, from the Hindu religion. if you put ‘Swastika Hindu’ into google you get:
In Hinduism, the right-facing symbol (clockwise) (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ('sun'), prosperity and good luck, while the left-facing symbol (counter-clockwise) (卍) is called sauvastika, symbolising night or tantric aspects of Kali.
I have one of these coins in my collection - is that wrong?
As for government conspiracy theories, I've worked in and out of of local government for many years, both as a Council Officer and as a contractor. I even worked on elections as a polling station Presiding Officer (should I be vilified for that? Maybe in parts of US, but not here in the UK where it's seen as serving your community). I've learnt over the years is that ALL political parties, regardless of political colour, have people with their own agendas or who are corrupt, all of them have misfits, and all of them make mistakes. The most likely explanation for the mistakes made by governments, of all shapes and sizes, is that someone somewhere has made a cockup.
My advice - Whenever you see the word conspiracy, read incompetence. It's far better for your sanity.
The swastika as a pattern doesn't come from Hinduism it's much older. Every culture that invented weaving knows it, one reason it is so ubiquitous around the world.
As for the coins of Nazi Germany, I am for #4. But the question is broader: what to do with the coins of those regimes that I consider criminal. Here, everything is individual in each case. For example, regarding the coins of the USSR, I would choose #1: unlike the Nazis, the communist ideology and practice were not properly condemned in the 20th century, so even today, anyone who distributes their coins also contributes to the spread of the opinion that everything was fine in the USSR.
If you are not going to collect Nazi coins for any reason you wish to use, then I would also like to state that collection British coins of certain dates would be as bad.
Great Britain was heavily involved in the “Slave Trade”, which in my opinion was nearly as bad, so you have difficult choices to make.
If you do not want Nazi coins there are many other countries with similar problems.
since this thread keeps popping up and I can't remember if i've posted an actual decent reply instead of just, whatever is going on.
Big ol Number 4!
Germany has a very interesting history with their coinage, and the different eras that changed quickly can be easily seen in their coins. From the pre-nazi Rentenpfennig to the de-nazified allied-occupation Reichspfennigs there are many design changes between the start of WW1 to the end of WW2. Even if you have a general interest in WW2, Germany's coins offer interesting insights to how it went from a perspective of what was jingling in the change of the common german people.
I was going to reply but then I got this warning. Are you getting them too?
No, I just tried it and did not get any warning message. Maybe you have an AI computer that can read your mind . Beware what you are thinking right now😅
I was going to reply but then I got this warning. Are you getting them too?
No, I just tried it and did not get any warning message. Maybe you have an AI computer that can read your mind . Beware what you are thinking right now😅
I thinking right now, “I'm hungry.” I loved to have a list of the words that trigger that warning, just to see what's offensive to the designers.
Regarding the warning message: it is an attempt to help people think twice before posting messages that infringe the forum policy. It's quite new and we are still adjusting. It doesn't rely on any word blacklist, but on a general evaluation of the message using OpenAI.
It is my belief that the history of Germany is greatly misrepresented, and coins are artifacts that can provide an anchor to the truth. The same is true for fascist Italy, North Korea and every other regime for the last 2000 years. Before you get too excited, tell me what you see on the reverse of a US Mercury dime.
A smart man learns from his mistakes. A smarter man learns from someone else's.
I think reading the last few posts, there’s nothing more That people can contribute to this very unnecessary Topic. It would be great if it can now be locked and let it die in dignity by being buried under more recent and importantly more numismatic vs political trigger content
I think reading the last few posts, there’s nothing more That people can contribute to this very unnecessary Topic. It would be great if it can now be locked and let it die in dignity by being buried under more recent and importantly more numismatic vs political trigger content
The thread shouldn't be locked, the post was fine it's just the people replying need to control themselves (and evidentally some just couldn't.)
. Beware what you are thinking right now😅
