1 Grosso - Henry VII [解決]

Please combine

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces346992.html

N#199133

right  Currency Livre Tournois (963-1353)

The duplicate has been removed. 

I agree we should change the currency, but Is the correct curency for Milan the livre Tournois, or Lira (=20 soldi = 240 denari imperiali) as with the other northern Italian currencies?  MEC 12 (Day, Matzke and Saccocci) seem to say Milan used the lira and most of the other smaller northern principalities followed them.

it seems that this coin was minted according to technical specifications of  gros tournois

N#38306

N#13405

N#311352

I will leave the currency blank and add the links to the coins

Medieval European Coinage, Volume 12 (Northern Italy) gives a different explanation, saying that the specification for Henry's large grosso was 2X the Genoese soldo and 2.33X the Venetian grosso (the design is also based more on the Venetian model than the French).  

Anyhow, I think we should change the early Milan currency to the Lira (not the denier) for the post-Imperial period, 1155-? after which we have the Scudo.  If we follow the beginning date for the Scudo in other parts of Italy, it will be something like 1530, which will resut in moving many Milan types from the scudo to the lira.  

If you agree, I can implement this, and change the relative values in the database using MEC 12  as a reference, and after consulting with  @Jarcek  who has been doing a lot of work in the database to clean up the currencies.

@tdziemia I agree, maybe we could define the beginning date for the Scudo in Milano as 1515.

https://en.numista.com/literature/volume.php?id=5396 lists as #260 this Scudo del Sole (not yet on Numista) with dates 1519-1521

https://www.cambiaste.com/it/asta-0991/milano-francesco-i-dangouleme-1515-1521-scudo-doro-del-sole-315998

The difference between Lira and Denier is not clear to me, it's not the same currency as 1 Lira = 240 Denier ?
 

Today we have the earlier currency for Milan as the denier (denaro), which I agree is same as 1/240 Lira, but is inconsistent with how we have handled most of the rest of northern Italy, where we define the larger unit as the curency.  

More important is the date that the earlier currency ends and the next one begins.  So, if we use 1515 for the beginning of the Scudo,  it means we move about 80 Milan coins from the Scudo to the earlier currency.  

I think we would have these denominations in silver/billon (either moved or copied form the Scudo where I think they all currently exist):

Denaro (1/240)

Denaro imperialo (1/120)

Trillina (1/80)

Quattrino (1/60)

Sesino (1/40)

Ottino (1/30)

Soldo (1/20)

Quindicino (5/80)

Pegione (3/40)

Grosso of 2 soldi (1/10)

Grosso of 3 soldi (3/20)

Grosso of 4 soldi (1/5)

Grosso/grossone of 5 soldi (¼)

Grossone of 8 soldi (2/5)

½ testone (½)

Testone (1)

Please correct Denaro imperialo to Denaro imperiale

i will take a look at my manuals tomorrow 

cippirimerlo

Please correct Denaro imperialo to Denaro imperiale

 

Grazie.

I will mark the request to merge the types as “Done” but we can continue to discuss the currency here.

I agree it could be changed to Lira, would there be any problems coming from that?

Denominations are ok for me

Jarcek

I agree it could be changed to Lira, would there be any problems coming from that?

I think we can take the current currency Denier, change to Lira, change the years to 1155-1515.  

Then set up the denominations, in some cases just by attaching the current ones to the Lira (instead of the Scudo).  

I will send you a note.