Request to unify coin types for Portugal [解決]

Hello,

I noticed that Portuguese commemorative BU coins denominated 2,5€ and 5€ aren't often marked as the same type. Some are marked as circulating commemorative, some as non-circulating, although being made from the same material (CuNi or 0,500 silver) and with similar mintages. There are two examples of these coins having the different status on Numista.

2½ Euros (UEFA EURO 2020) - Portugal – Numista

2½ Euros (200 Years of the Constitution of 1822) - Portugal – Numista

Here are laws describing the same legal tender status for both coins (article 5 in both cases)

Portaria n.º 276/2022 | DR

Portaria n.º 138/2020 | DR

These are just examples, other non-proof coins of these denominations are sometimes marked as non-circulating, sometimes as circulating, without any obvious differences to justify their different status.

My point is that these coins should be marked as the same type to make the catalogue search easier. So either all of them should be marked as circulating (because they are exchanged for a FV without a special packaging) or as non-circulating (because these denominations are not normally used for payments). I know there are lots of disputes if some coin is a circulating or non-circulating, but at least this status should be chosen consistently for all coins in my opinion.

Thank for your answer

The legislation calls these “commemorative collector coins” so they should be non-circulating. 

I have changed the one in your link, and you can submit Modification Requests for others which are not correct.   

Thanks a lot, the thing is that most of these coins are marked as circulating commemoratives in the catalogue (which I also consider wrong) and it would take some time (and many change requests 🙂) to correct them all. I would also like to know first what the Portuguese coins referee thinks about this, I suppose referees already have their system how to treat coins from ‘their’ country, so I guess changes to so many pages might add unnecessary work to both me and the referee. Just in case, is it customary to write a PM directly to the referee about this or should I rather wait until he/she replies to the public request here?

@monge 

Can you please take a look at this discussion?

The Numista definition for “non-circulating coins” is:  Coins issued by a government with collection or investment purpose, including non-circulating legal tender coins (NCLT). They were not intended for circulation. The coins are denominated in a currency which has some circulating coins or banknotes.

As the legislation called these “collector coins” but they are in the normal circulating currency, it seems they should be classified as non-circulating.  

I can only speak for what happens in Portugal.

Portugal is a member of the European Union (EU) and has the sovereign right to mint coins in its territory.
Each issued coin is based on a Decree-Law and this decree expressly states:
 

1 - The reason why the coin is issued.
2  -Description of the coin, such as values, symbols, metals, weight and diameter, etc.
3 - Quantities of each minted value.
In addition, it cleary establishes that no one can refuse to receive such a coin and, for large-value payments, the maximum number of coins that each person or institution is obliged to receive.

Therefore, these coins are Commemorative Circulation Coins.

In addition, the same Decree establishes how many of these coins can be issued in noble metals or with special finishes, such as Brilliant Uncirculated (BNC) and Proof. These are coins intended for collectors and are classified as Non-Circulating Commemoratives Coins.
 

If I was a lawyer, I could certainly provide a better basis for what I have just written.

monge

I can only speak for what happens in Portugal.

Portugal is a member of the European Union (EU) and has the sovereign right to mint coins in its territory.
Each issued coin is based on a Decree-Law and this decree expressly states:
 

1 - The reason why the coin is issued.
2  -Description of the coin, such as values, symbols, metals, weight and diameter, etc.
3 - Quantities of each minted value.
In addition, it cleary establishes that no one can refuse to receive such a coin and, for large-value payments, the maximum number of coins that each person or institution is obliged to receive.

 

Therefore, these coins are Commemorative Circulation Coins.

In addition, the same Decree establishes how many of these coins can be issued in noble metals or with special finishes, such as Brilliant Uncirculated (BNC) and Proof. These are coins intended for collectors and are classified as Non-Circulating Commemoratives Coins.
 

If I was a lawyer, I could certainly provide a better basis for what I have just written.

Thanks for the answer. On the other hand, all these decree-laws also point to the earlier one from 2007, which says in the article 3, paragraph 1: “Collector's coins are issued for numismatic purposes and are not intended to satisfy the necessities of monetary circulation” (unlike commemorative versions of circulating coins in the separate article).

Decreto-Lei n.º 246/2007 | DR

I'm not a lawyer either, but this seems to fit perfectly with the Numista definition of non-circulating coins quoted by tdziemia. You're right that there is the legal obligation to accept them, but it also includes the proof version, which is obviously non-circulating (the decree-law for every such coin establishes the legal tender status for “coins struck within the frame of the present document,” not specifying if it means only BU coins or not). Furthermore, the legal tender status rather means that the collector's coin is not a private medal and can be theoretically used for payments in my opinion.

I don't pretend to know Portuguese coins and coinage laws better than you do, but even with my limited knowledge of Portuguese, these laws seem to confirm that the BU collector's coins are non-circulating issues (although they are exchanged at FV without any special packaging). At the same time, my humble opinion is that the Numista catalogue should be consistent. If one looks at similar BU Euro coins of other nations (like 5 Euros (Western Capercaillie) - Slovakia – Numista for instance), they are classified as non-circulating in most cases and I strongly suspect that the legislation behind them would be really similar as in the case of Portugal.

I just wanted to express my opinions and arguments on this topic and I suppose it's up to someone from the Numista team in the end to decide how it should be done. So no offence meant if I didn't agree with the way how you see the status of these coins.

Deda Lebeda

monge

I can only speak for what happens in Portugal.

Portugal is a member of the European Union (EU) and has the sovereign right to mint coins in its territory.
Each issued coin is based on a Decree-Law and this decree expressly states:
 

1 - The reason why the coin is issued.
2  -Description of the coin, such as values, symbols, metals, weight and diameter, etc.
3 - Quantities of each minted value.
In addition, it cleary establishes that no one can refuse to receive such a coin and, for large-value payments, the maximum number of coins that each person or institution is obliged to receive.

 

Therefore, these coins are Commemorative Circulation Coins.

In addition, the same Decree establishes how many of these coins can be issued in noble metals or with special finishes, such as Brilliant Uncirculated (BNC) and Proof. These are coins intended for collectors and are classified as Non-Circulating Commemoratives Coins.
 

If I was a lawyer, I could certainly provide a better basis for what I have just written.

Thanks for the answer. On the other hand, all these decree-laws also point to the earlier one from 2007, which says in the article 3, paragraph 1: “Collector's coins are issued for numismatic purposes and are not intended to satisfy the necessities of monetary circulation” (unlike commemorative versions of circulating coins in the separate article).

 

Decreto-Lei n.º 246/2007 | DR

 

I'm not a lawyer either, but this seems to fit perfectly with the Numista definition of non-circulating coins quoted by tdziemia. You're right that there is the legal obligation to accept them, but it also includes the proof version, which is obviously non-circulating (the decree-law for every such coin establishes the legal tender status for “coins struck within the frame of the present document,” not specifying if it means only BU coins or not). Furthermore, the legal tender status rather means that the collector's coin is not a private medal and can be theoretically used for payments in my opinion.

 

I don't pretend to know Portuguese coins and coinage laws better than you do, but even with my limited knowledge of Portuguese, these laws seem to confirm that the BU collector's coins are non-circulating issues (although they are exchanged at FV without any special packaging). At the same time, my humble opinion is that the Numista catalogue should be consistent. If one looks at similar BU Euro coins of other nations (like 5 Euros (Western Capercaillie) - Slovakia – Numista for instance), they are classified as non-circulating in most cases and I strongly suspect that the legislation behind them would be really similar as in the case of Portugal.

 

I just wanted to express my opinions and arguments on this topic and I suppose it's up to someone from the Numista team in the end to decide how it should be done. So no offence meant if I didn't agree with the way how you see the status of these coins.

Yes, if they are  coins intended for collectors, and are not intended for circulation, they are properly classified as non-circulating  coins.

Thanks for confirming this. I will submit change request for these coins as soon I have time.