Postal Orders - should NOT be indicated as 'N.D.'

Postal Orders should NOT be indicated as ‘N.D.’ - as they are issued through local post offices & the application of the post offices' datestamps validates their issue on that date of issue.

@brismike  & @Pcoetzee5 , please don't eliminate references to the dates & issuing (& in some cases, cashing post offices).

I am intending to invite members of the Postal Order Society to join up here in due course - so they can contribute to the Postal Orders catalogue as well.

Aidan.

I remain at my standpoint that if you want to add the date of issue to the postal orders, and the place, we will potentially end up with millions of lines for a document that is UNDATED other than the adte stampt when it was used.  If I now get the same Postal Order, but from a different place with a different date, should I add it as a seperate line?  Come on Guys, this does not make ANY sense.

You can add the place and date as a private comment.  Then you can see how many you can get from different places, and for that matter different dates.

Think practical, I am also interested in types, dates, variaties, but this is pushing the envelope.

Philip

I agree with the referees in that each note having it's own date is impractical as you would have loads of year lines for each individual date. As issued it didn't have a date unless it did. 

Dates added post printing should be private comments. 

Pcoetzee5

I remain at my standpoint that if you want to add the date of issue to the postal orders, and the place, we will potentially end up with millions of lines for a document that is UNDATED other than the adte stampt when it was used.  If I now get the same Postal Order, but from a different place with a different date, should I add it as a seperate line?  Come on Guys, this does not make ANY sense.

 

You can add the place and date as a private comment.  Then you can see how many you can get from different places, and for that matter different dates.

 

Think practical, I am also interested in types, dates, variaties, but this is pushing the envelope.

 

Philip

 

 

Philip,

  We need to use the Postal Orders section as a way of educating about the various places where they were issued.

In South Africa's case, the postal orders issued prior to 27 April 1994 should indicate the province's name - Cape Province, Natal, Orange Free State, & Transvaal as part of the description.

Kimberley, for example, was in the Cape Province.

The Bantustans' postal orders are self-explanatory - as there were very few post offices known in those 4 entities prior to being reincorporated back into South Africa.

Swaziland overprinted South African postal orders are known from Mbabane - not sure about other places.

Lesotho overprinted South African postal orders are known from Maseru - not sure about other places.

I have some cashed Orange Free State Postal Notes dated 1898 & 1899 in my collection - mainly 1 Shilling & 5 Shillings.

Aidan.

peterjhalford

I agree with the referees in that each note having it's own date is impractical as you would have loads of year lines for each individual date. As issued it didn't have a date unless it did. 

 

Dates added post printing should be private comments. 

Datestamp dates should be public comments, not private.

Same goes for issuing & cashing post offices as well.

Aidan.

Good morning all

This is now escalating to an educational tool of mamouth proportions.

Here are some facts about South Africa:

• Prior to the formation of the Union of South Africa in 1910, there were two INDEPENDENT Countries
  • The ZAR (Zuid Afrikaanse Republik), desolved after the loss of the Second Anglo Boer War and the Peace of Vereeniging
  • The Orange Free State (OFS), same here
•  And there were Two british Colonies
  • Natal
  • Cape Colony
• These 4 entities became the four provinces with the Formation of the Union of South Africa in 1910
• And with the formation of the republic in 1961, these remained the 4 provinces.
• With the all inclusive election in 1994, the country was divided into 9 new provinces.

Postal Oders issued by the ZAR, OFS, Natal and Cape Colony must have their own entry on the website as the issue of Postal orders have absolutely nothing to do with the later formed Union of South Africa or the Republic of South Africa. Thanks heavens this is still currently the case.

Here are some facts on postal orders issued in the Repiblic of South Africa, as far as I can remember I have not seen any that were issued during the time of the Union. The below mentioned facts exclude independent countries like Lesotho and Swaziland, and excluding the perevious homelands like kwaZulu, Boputatswana, Vends, Transkei, Ceskei, etc.:

• Postal orders issued throughout South Africa were EXACTLY the same for all the post offices, and they were UNDATED.
  • I am sure the designs changed over time
• Upon the day of issue, the post office worker would stamp the postal order with a date stamp, that also include the location.  This means the issue date and location was added afterwards as the original was UNDATED.
• Every single Post office in South Africa could issue Postal orders, and Google lists more than 1.400 postoffice.  I am sure that during the 60s and 70s there might have been more as every one-horse-town had a post office.
• If we go out from a 6 day a week working week for the post office, that would make it at least 300 working days per post office
• This multiplied by 1.400 post offices would give us 420.000 lines.  This is exactly what you are porposing right now.

I understand that you might have a postal order, and that it has a date stamp on it. So lets us consider the following, just as an example:

• Your Postal order was issued at the Adderley Steet Main Post office in Cape Town on 25 January 1969, a Saturday.
  • So we add this as place
  • And we add a date line
• Now I am lucky enough to find the same Postal order (design and value), issued on Monday 27 January 1969, at the same post office
  • So now we add another date line for the same place
• We can continue this game till we have the 420.000 line all added.

So it does not make sense to add date and place lines for undated items that were date afterwards.

BCNumismatics, Aiden, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I believe that those who are interested will look on the map as to where Kimberly is, when it was part of which country or province and even as to why it changed hands.  Perhaps they will find the History of Barby Bernato and Cecil John Rhodes interesting and then learn about the history.  I believe that the site's function is not to educate the members of the history of South Africa, or for that matter any other town, province or country. It is here to give us enthusiasts the opportunity to identify, list, valuate, and swap coins and othet items listed here, including Postal Orders.  It is a  place to share information on set items, where we can get to know about new issues.  As time goes by it looks like Bit Coin et al will replace fiat, which means that the future grown of our collections might be only with previous issued items.

I hope that after this long winded esay, you can accept my decicion, and the rational behind it, not to add date and place lines to Postal Orders.

Philip

Philip,

  The Orange Free State & the South African Republic were actually under British suzerainty.

Only Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Transkei, & Venda issued postal orders for the Bantustans.

That 5 Cents on 6 Pence postal order dated 30 May 1961 was issued under the Union of South Africa.

Aidan.

Hello,
 

I understand the informational purpose to show the various dates and places where postal orders were stamped.

Still, it doesn't fit on the year lines, since they are stamped after issuance. 

I recommend to document the dates and places in the “specimen” section. In that section, you can add pictures of the stamped postal orders with information about their specific date and location.

Overprinting is a different thing. The overprinted postal orders would deserve a separate page.

@Xavier , postal orders are validated through being applied through the use of a post office's datestamps. The date on the datestamp used is the date of the postal order.

It is not often that one comes across a postal order without a datestamp.

In some cases, they were perfinned through football pools vending machines in the U.K. - & in other cases, they are found overprinted ‘CANCELLED’ or ‘SPECIMEN’.

Sometimes, cashed postal orders turn up - & these are worthy of listing with mention of the cashing date & the cashing post office as well.

Aidan.

The cashing date and post office can be added in the comment of the specimens too.

Xavier

The cashing date and post office can be added in the comment of the specimens too.

Specimen postal orders don't generally pass over a post office's counter.

They need listing separately, as does Replacement postal orders & commemorative postal orders.

Aidan.

Sorry for the confusion. By “specimen” I actually mean the “example” section.

See for example here: N#442784 

I recommend to document the dates and places of issue and cashing in the “example” section. In that section, you can add pictures of the stamped postal orders with information about their specific date(s) and location(s).

@Xavier , please keep the date sections unblocked, so that we can add in the dates of extant examples - along with photos of them.

Delete the demonetisation dates for the postal orders in the listings, as I don't think that they apply in some cases.

Aidan.

@Xavier  & @Pcoetzee5 , have a look here;

https://banknoteindex.com/browse.mhtml?browseBy=Source&browse=Aidan%20Work .

Postal orders are definitely dated.

Aidan.

Again, a postal order can have 315 date, one for each working day of the year. Would you like to add ALL the date when a postal order was issued to the page? Why not complicate it more and add all 2000 possible place it could have veen issued on a particular date as well?

We have been through this many times. It makes absolutely Zero sense to want to add SOME date of when they MIGHT have been issued.

A from to date make sense. Nothing else. 

Philip