Local or emergency banknotes? [解決]

According to the new categories, many banknotes in notgeld issuers are classified as Banknotes › Local banknotes, but the coins are classified as Emergency coinage › Official necessity coins. 

I think, in my opinion, that to be more consistent between both categories, and taking into account that it is the same type of coinage, the ideal would be to classify these banknotes as Emergency Banknotes.

Numista description: "Emergency banknotes: Banknotes issued in emergency, usually in periods of war, to provide banknotes when official banknotes are not available."

Example of Spain Notgeld:

Example of German Notgeld:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/espagne_guerre-civile-1.html

Many thanks for your opinions,

Oscar

I presume there are also emergency tokens?

LP

@mikimaus  Les pièces et jetons de nécessité (objets ronds et rigides) sont divisés entre émissions officielles (classées dans les pièces) et non-officielle (classées dans les jetons : magasins, coopératives, transports…).

Il faudrait faire de même avec les billets, et renommer les billets officiels (villes, chambres de commerce…) en Emergency banknotes > Official necessity banknotes pour être cohérent.

Je suis d'accord avec @oynbcn 

abidbol

@mikimaus  Les pièces et jetons de nécessité (objets ronds et rigides) sont divisés entre émissions officielles (classées dans les pièces) et non-officielle (classées dans les jetons : magasins, coopératives, transports…).

 

Il faudrait faire de même avec les billets, et renommer les billets officiels (villes, chambres de commerce…) en Emergency banknotes > Official necessity banknotes pour être cohérent.

Je suis d'accord avec @oynbcn 

I totally agree with you @abidbol  I think the classification you propose would be perfect: 

The proposed change would be change current classification:

Banknotes › Local banknotes

To a new one called:

Emergency banknotes > Official necessity banknotes

I suppose that this classification of necessity banknotes would be the same for other countries, such as Germany, Austria, Portugal (to name those that have the most along with France and Spain). Those from the Russian Civil War should possibly also fall into this classification.

I ask the different referees to comment on their opinion on the matter and to agree among all on the best option.

Poke @Silberschatz @vladthiengo @alamir 

If I understand right. It´s just a new name. And not adding more different classifications?

alamir

If I understand right. It´s just a new name. And not adding more different classifications?

In banknotes, the current existing classification would be this:

Banknotes › Emergency banknotes

I suppose that the classification proposed by Abidol would correspond exactly to that of the coins:  

Emergency (coins) banknotes > Official necessity (coins) banknotes

I don't know if there would be any other type within Emergency banknotes than this one. If not, maybe we could use the existing one and move all these notes to this existing category: Banknotes › Emergency banknotes

This is what we have now in coins:

• Emergency coinage

Coins that were issued in an emergency situation to compensate for the lack of official coinage.

Siege coins

Coins issued during a period of war to supply coinage locally.

Official necessity coins

Coins issued by an official body, usually a local authority, to supply coinage during a period of coin shortage.

Merchant tokens

Coins issued by private entities to supply coinage during a period of coin shortage. The token is intended to circulate beyond the store(s) of the company who issued them.

The notes that I mention would correspond to the second classification (Official necessity banknotes), are there notes of the other two (Siege banknotes and merchant banknotes? In Spain, there are paper money that I think could fit in Merchant banknotes category, like the one below:

N#229524

I think a term like ‘Official necessity banknotes’ would be an odd one to use, as it has never been used before, afaik. Perhapsthe term 'Extraordinary Issue' might be considered.

‘Extraordinary Issue’ has been used in the past (by the Currency Commission Ireland) to label an extra issue of banknotes which would be made in the event of official necessity. In this case, the ‘official necessity’ was the outbreak of war in Europe in 1939, and the Extraordinary Issue would have been made had there been a run on the Irish banks by the public.

In Spain we do use the term necessity banknotes and coins, but there is no problem in looking for the best possible word.

Regarding the description of Siege coins, I would add a sentence to avoid confusion:

Siege coins: Coins issued during a period of war to supply coinage locally when the place is under siege.

If we do not add the final part of that sentence (in bold), all the Notgeld coins and banknotes, for example, from Spain, would fall into this classification, and that would not be correct, since the siege was not the reason for their issue, but the lack of divisional currency at the national level in the Republican zone. A clear example of Siege coin is this:

N#59122

I created this Topic in Referee Forum, but maybe is better to move it to Numista website Forum. 

Please, can someone move this Topic to Numista Website Forum? Some non referee users want to participate on it. Many thanks!!!

Poke @ZacUK @VieillePile @ystankous 

As I said elsewhere, a category needs to be added to Banknotes, and that is for all those banknotes issued by chartered banks under authority (by the terms of their charter) and/or the government which grants them this right. Examples include… 

• the notes issued by the Colonial Bank in the British Caribbean colonies (Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados, etc.)
• higher value notes ($5 and up) issued by Canadian chartered banks according to privilege granted by the Dominion government. The right to issue notes and the list of banks allowed to do so was incorporated into the Canadian legislation (of 1891, and then updated with amendments over the years).
  The notes of the Bank of Montreal (example), the Bank of Nova Scotia, the Imperial Bank, etc. were not local notes. They were authorized by the Dominion for circulation in the Dominion.

Camerinvs

a category needs to be added to Banknotes, and that is for all those banknotes issued by chartered banks under authority (by the terms of their charter) and/or the government which grants them this right. 

'Private Bank Issues' and ‘Joint Stock Bank Issues’ are the terms in use to describe such note issues in the British Isles. Northern ireland and Scottish banknotes fall under the latter.

Hibernia

Camerinvs

a category needs to be added to Banknotes, and that is for all those banknotes issued by chartered banks under authority (by the terms of their charter) and/or the government which grants them this right. 

'Private Bank Issues' and ‘Joint Stock Bank Issues’ are the terms in use to describe such note issues in the British Isles. Northern ireland and Scottish banknotes fall under the latter.

Thx for the reply, Hibernia. In Canada, there are two volumes for this in the Charlton Standard Catalogues series:

1. Canadian Government Paper Money (this includes provincial [i.e. colonial] government notes, municipal notes [a category of local notes], Dominion of Newfoundland notes, Dominion of Canada notes, Bank of Canada notes, and some other minor categories of official issues);
2. Canadian Bank Notes ("This book is an indispensable guide to Canadian chartered banknotes and their current market value").

I don't mean that we should use the Charlton designations. We just need a terminology that allows us to easily identify and categorize the types of notes that exist out there.

Do we actually need a separate category for emergency issues? Couldn't this be covered by a tag instead? This would be far less contentious. The same could be said for local issues. After all, the issuer will tell us if it's local or not.

ceh2019

Do we actually need a separate category for emergency issues? Couldn't this be covered by a tag instead? This would be far less contentious. The same could be said for local issues. After all, the issuer will tell us if it's local or not.

For me, having a separate category for emergency issues is a very positive thing. Clearly it is a type of banknote that must be differentiated from the normal or commemorative issue, since historical and economic circumstances mean that they are normally very different banknotes from those issued by states under normal circumstances. This is also how they are treated by the majority of numismatic professionals, with independent catalogs and their own characteristics. The same thing happens with coins of necessity or emergency. For example, I love to see which coins and banknotes in my collection are emergency ones (notgeld) and which are not.

As for the so-called local banknotes, here I have more doubts, since the only thing that term refers to is an area of ​​local use, and that is already defined in the issuer itself to which the note is assigned. In fact, I don't know which banknote could be assigned to this category.

Poke @Xavier 

I would like to take this opportunity to request that Mr. Robot change the category of all Spanish banknotes from the Civil War (Spanish Notgeld) from the Local Banknotes category to the Emergency Banknotes category.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=espagne_guerre-civile&r=&st=148&cat=y&im1=&im2=&ru=&ie=&ca=3&no=&v=&a=&dg=&i=&b=&m=&f=&t=&t2=&w=&mt=&u=&g=&se=&c=&wi=&sw=

Hello.

Is there anything else that needs to be done or discussed here? New categories have been created and I believe that many adjustments have already been made.

If there is anything else that needs to be observed by the administrators, please report it here.

Greetings,

Vladimir

Yes. As I said above, chartered banknotes are not local banknotes as described in these two examples:

Bank of Montreal 5 dollars 1914

Dominion Bank 5 dollars 1931

For the time being, the closest description would be “Standard circulation banknotes” since the Dominion of Canadian law (updated 1891) recognized issues of the private chartered banks as legal tender. As a mater of fact, the Dominion of Canada printed very few $5 notes and no $10 and $20 notes at all because those had been attributed to the chartered banks.

The Government kept for itself the lower denominations —25c, $1, $2 and $4— so that the lower classes would not be robbed of their hard earned money when a bank went bankrupt…

Camerinvs

Yes. As I said above, chartered banknotes are not local banknotes as described in these two examples:

 

Bank of Montreal 5 dollars 1914

Dominion Bank 5 dollars 1931

You can then request to change the classification of these records directly on the pages. Then, the referee may (or may not) accept your request, in this case.

Regards,

Vladimir

vladthiengo

Camerinvs

Yes. As I said above, chartered banknotes are not local banknotes as described in these two examples:

 

Bank of Montreal 5 dollars 1914

Dominion Bank 5 dollars 1931

You can then request to change the classification of these records directly on the pages. Then, the referee may (or may not) accept your request, in this case.

 

Regards,

Vladimir

But the category of “chartered banknotes” doesn't exist yet, which is a lttle surprising as it is quite a common type of notes in the British colonial space (including the dominions).

I could ask them to be changed to “standard circulation banknotes” but I'm afraid it will be turned down (and therefore I would be wasting my time).

Hello, Camerinvs.

You can request the inclusion of this new category of banknotes here on Numista, in a new topic (requesting the creation or modification of a currency or denomination in the catalogue). The administrators can evaluate your request and the possible inclusion.

I believe that you have relevant information regarding this type of banknotes and, in your request, you can explain everything you have as a basis to justify your request.

As soon as you make this new request, let us know here so that we can follow up and help in any way we can, ok?

Regards,

Vladimir.

OK – thanks Vladimir. I will do so as soon as possible. I just have to retrieve my Charlton catalogue which provides the basic information, but it's been in a box since I moved to my new home.

Camerinvs

OK – thanks Vladimir. I will do so as soon as possible. I just have to retrieve my Charlton catalogue which provides the basic information, but it's been in a box since I moved to my new home.

There is nothing to thank you for! The Numista is the one who thanks you for your time and for trying to make the catalogue even better! =)