2 x 4 Reales Spanish Cobs

I bought these together for 71 usd. I believe that they are both 4 reales and they weigh 13.5 and 13.3 Grams respectively. One has a Mexico City mint mark but thats about it. was wondering if anyone could help me further identify these coins (date them) and perhaps value them. Many Thanks, 

Jono

Specific dates are impossible for these examples as is much of the other details due to the very nature of how Spanish Colonial Cob coins were produced and hundreds of years of  wear. The most important factor as far as Spain was concerned was getting the weight right, and not the details, and getting them from the colonies to the King in Spain as quickly as possible. This is the norm for these types of coins and nicer examples with more  intact information are of course more rare and more valuable.  We can however deduce where they may have come from and the era from the type of cross used with fairly good accuracy and the denomination of course by  weight. Clearly both are in fact 4 Reales being in the 13g + range. You are correct about the top coin being from Mexico as on the left side there is enough of the mintmark to confirm that it is from the Mexico City mint. Also notice the cross. This “Florenzada”  type cross was only used in Mexico between 1572 and 1733. So if the mintmark was not there, we could deduce from Mexico by the Cross used. I will stop here as this is getting rather long and will continue with more shortly.

-Harry

 The Shield and it's contents can tell us the Monarch and therefore the era. Philip I, II, III, IV, V, Carlos II, III, IV, Ferdinand VI, VII etc. The Mexico 4 Reales most closely matches a Philip IV shield to my eye. He had 4 of slightly different design. This would date this example between 1621 and 1665.  I have an example of this coin and could not date mine exactly either so I just cataloged it in the mid date range. Value? Priceless in my opinion because I just love them. I would have been happy to own it for $35 if I didnt already have an example. I feel you got yours for a very reasonable price considering some of the ridiculous prices some people are asking for them.

I will continue shortly with your other example after I scrutinize it.

Struggling with the second one because there are some conflicting issues with it.. Working on it.

For the second coin there are still some contradictions I am wrestling with. Concentrating on the Shield and type of Cross as the first clues, I am almost positive this was minted in Spain proper and not a Spanish colony at all. This shield has 2 smaller shields within it which Spain used at home exclusively to the best of my knowlege and research. Also note the faint crown immediately above the large shield. The cross in this case is a “Greek style” used between 1571-1652. These dates could include the monarchs Philip II, III, and IV. What I cannot reconcile from the Numista catalog is the beads immediately surrounding the Greek style cross.  During some periods, coins were both milled and hammered. This could be a  8 reales milled coin that was "clipped" for change for instance, perhaps not. I see some milled Spanish 8 reales coins that show these beads so close to the cross. In  either case this coin may be a candidate for a new entry in the Numista catalog. I am going to try to match your coin using other resources beyond Numista. Perhaps a definitive answer is elsewhere. This will will take some time and for another day. Anybody else have an idea?

-Harry

Thanks for your wisdom so far. I too have never seen anything like the 2nd one.

The second coin is a 4 reales of Felipe III or IV. The octolobe around the cross is there, but worn. The coat of arms has inside the little shield of Portugal, used in Spain, not colonial.

zegeri

The second coin is a 4 reales of Felipe III or IV. The octolobe around the cross is there, but worn. The coat of arms has inside the little shield of Portugal, used in Spain, not colonial.

Correct but the octolobe is not surrounded by a ring of beads in any example here on Numista of the Felipe III or IV eras. Not ½ real, not 1 real, not 4 real, not 8 real. The only similar coin of this cross / bead combination is that of Felipe II. The type cross on the reverse of the era does not match the era of the shield “Portugese coat of arms” on the obverse . I can not see this combination anywhere in any denomination,  at least here on Numista. Thus the dilema and looking elsewhere if perhaps this should be entered as a new type in Numista or we have something else entirely with this coin.

Note the different obverse shield / reverse cross & bead combination. Not a Portugese coat of arms.

N#32165

Ok my friend, I really tried for a solution to this mystery and this is my conclusion. This combination obverse / reverse does not exist anywhere I looked. Spain, Spanish States, Colonies, or eras. The obverse shield screams minted in Spain proper and  I looked elsewhere and everywhere anyway to account for the conflicting issues. Then I thought perhaps this was an example of a milled 8 reales that was clipped to make change in every day commerce to account for its odd shape and conflicting issues but could not find a milled 8 reales that could account for the discrepency. Keeping in mind that even If it was indeed a hammered coin minted in Spain, it is exceedingly crude in shape, more indicative of what you would expect coming from the colonies and not that of Spain. At least they attempted to keep their coins in a semi round form at home. Unfortunately, I must conclude that this is a replica intended to mislead. A pretty good one at that.

Thanks for your detective work. I was hoping for it to be real, but ohh well.

I have the same suspicion. The whole coin looks good, but some details are weird. The obverse is Spanish after 1597 because the presence of a little shield of Portugal, but the value (IIII) is horizontal like in the coins before 1597. The only use of the shield of Portugal in Spanish America, that I know, was in the mint start-up of Santa Fe (Bogotá, Colombia) in 1621 with dies imported from Spain. See the 2 reales N#61427

The reverse has the combination octolobe with circle of beads used in Spain before 1597 and in Perú (Potosí and Lima) throughout the XVII century. The crude manufacture is typical of Potosí.

Jonathan, perhaps you can draw attention on this thread of the referees of Perú, adanieluy and jasanche. It is an interesting coin or …

 Hi Zegeri, I will try to contact these referees, but have posted the coin to the coin community forum for the time being. I appreciate your help guys.